Thanks!
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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17
2014-06-01 Coordinator of the body of elders ---NEWS BOE---
by WatchTower87 ininstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf : http://adf.ly/pkuhp.
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15
I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
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Old Goat
Some of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but I’m doing it again. You should read the two books written by Schulz and de Vienne:
1. Nelson Barbour: The Millennium’s Forgotten Prophet
2. A Separate Identity, volume 1.
They’re both available on lulu.com
Now, down to “brass tacks.” The Watchtower hides most of its history. They have a mythology they foist on Witnesses and others. They don’t lie nearly as much as omit. Personally, I think they don’t know most of what happened in their past. Russell and his followers weren’t interested in recording anything. They thought Jesus was going to “take them home.” Whatever the cause, the Procliamers book is a failure by omission.
Many things said here and elsewhere aren’t true either. When we spout nonsense simply because someone else told us it was true, we damage ourselves. The more accurate we are, the better we make our case. And we do have a case to make.
Schulz and de Vienne write detailed, accurate history. If the Watchtower had done this years ago, instead of perpetuating a religious myth, I would probably have fewer issues. But they didn’t. They’re anti-intellectual, incurious, and believe their own mythology. Schulz and de Vienne strip away myth. I want their work to continue.
They finance their research from the sale of their books and from a small amount of donations.
As I see it, buying their books helps our cause. It informs us, and it helps further their research.
Visit their blog at http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . Read through the archives. See if you don’t agree.
Both authors, if you contact them, are open, easy to communicate with, and seem to be nice people. Schulz is a Witness. De Vienne is not. I usually forward bits of my own research to Dr. de Vienne. Schulz is nearly as old as I am and slow to answer. I want their research to continue. They’re next book, volume 2 of Separate Identity, takes us into a period of controversy. No one’s documented it. I want to know the details. Don’t you?
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2014-06-01 Coordinator of the body of elders ---NEWS BOE---
by WatchTower87 ininstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf : http://adf.ly/pkuhp.
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57
Had an argument with my wife about tinkerbell :(
by BU2B inone of my co workers mother made my 4 year old a blanket with the disney character tinkerbell on it.
as soon as i got it i knew trouble lay ahead.
i wanted to reason with her before my daughter saw it so as not to cause a disruption, but it didn't work out that way.
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62
End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
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Old Goat
Doubting,
But those are other issues. Tax churches? I don't care. Use it as blackmail to make someone talk to us? That's wrong.
It's also wrong for an ecclesiastical authority to step into family life. The Watchtower does that frequently.
Religion does not have the character it did in the colonial era or for 125 years after 1776. I doubt Madison would see it in the same light if he were alive today. Not taxing religion is a hold over from the era of state churches.
My secondary issue is what some point to as the truth about the truth. The real issues are not historical. Most of those are not historically accurate anyway. No one checks. I read some nasty comments about the Brooklyn Eagle trial. Those who made them never read the transcript. It's not that hard to find, and if we assert things that aren't so, we prove to Witnesses that we are what they think we are.
The real issues are social and biblical. (At least for me, they are). For many here shunning is a prime issue. Because the right to associate is both a human and constitutional right, any attempt to force our association on those who do not wish it is wrong. Sunning is meant to punish. It's very effective as a punishment. It is not effective if one intends it to lead to repentance. It's a quarantine. As practiced by Witnesses, it is not apostolic. But shunning is a biblical practice.
Seeking to force association is childish. Take your ball home and play with someone else!
I seldom attend. As I've said elsewhere on this board, I'm nearly 90. I don't see well. I don't hear clearly. I'm dependent on others for travel.
I don't spread my personal beliefs. I'm conflicted in some areas because I've spent the bulk of my life as a Witness and believe much of the doctrine. I don't believe the wild approach to prophecy. I don't believe that one can legitimately turn an illustration into a prophecy, the prime current example of which is the faithful servant illustration. I reject Watchtower anti-intellectualism. I earned my PhD in the late 1950s. Even then there was a strong but bifurcated view of education. F. W. Franz was praised for his rather inadequate schooling; others were viewed with some skepticism for their education, no matter how long or well they served the congregations.
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End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
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Old Goat
I agree that Paul's injunction was to treat those expelled from the fellowship as a man of the nations. Since we're not to abuse strangers, the current practice among Jehovah's Witnesses is in some respects extra-Biblical. I never saw shunning as anything but my personal choice, which isn't "recomended" behavior, but was and is how I act.
That said, I can't think of many who weren't disfellowshipped for good cause. Without the biblical injuctions, I still wouldn't speak to most of them. Forcing someone to speak to us who detests what we stand for is a form of self-justification and abuse of our fellows. It's morally wrong. But then, for some, neither morals nor human rights matter.
Another factor here is that many who are disfellowshipped take up "an apostate stance." Many of the claims made are without foundation, especially those based on 'history.' That's one of the reasons i continue to recommend Schulz and de Vienne's books.
Is the Watchtower abusive? Yes. The powers that be are a self-entitled bunch who see themselves as a sort of collective pope. They know in their heart of hearts that they only control people by intimidation and by mis-defining the faithful slave as a prophetic body instead of the mere illustration Jesus intended. You see this in the current donation arragement letter if you read it carefully.
I reiterate that most here are here because they chose not to live by the standards Witnesses accept. Most here came to the so-called truth about the truth late, and many of them belive any negative claim uncritcally because their feelings are hurt and they want to strike back and feel in some way justified. That's not an uncommon reaction to being caught with your hand in the cookie jar. But it is immature.
If you wish to compel other to talk to you, how do you differ from the Watchtower which also uses compulsion in place of Bible teaching?
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A PERSONAL QUESTION to help me finish my NOVEL
by Terry inhere is a personal question:.
is it disturbing to you when an author jumps into the flow of history and radically departs in order to drive an important lesson home to the reader?.
in this novel i have several watch tower leaders meeting incredibly violent deaths at the hands of --well, i won't give anything away.
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62
End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
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Old Goat
I was a witness (thechically still am) for decades - A Company Servant, Congregation Servant, Elder, etc. I would like to think I used good sense during that era. I never felt compelled to shun anyone. But then I never sat on a "committee" that was unjust or cruel. If I didn't talk to you, it was because you were a royal creep. You slept with your daughter; you stole money from your employer; you fornicated with an clueless young girl. Trying to force someone to talk to us who detests what we did or us personally is as insane as anything the WT has ever done or said. Those who advocate a legal approach have no appreciation for American or human rights. period. And they have no sense of personal responsibility.
You want a Witness to talk to you, change your life. If you left on principal (something rare on this board), then live with your decision. But for God's sake, and your own, find some maturity. Stop whining and moaning.
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End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
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Old Goat
My "high horse" is the rights Americans enjoy. Cult or not, they have the right of association. That right persists even if you were "born in." You would force people who don't like you to speak? Why? Some sort of self-vindication? Do you really need to vindicate yourself?
The reason why they shun is irrelevant. They have the right to do it. You don't have the right to force your association on anyone.
I can't speak to how normal the lives of those who read this board are. It is not normal to insist that people who reject you or your behavior must speak to you. Insisting that those who do not approve of us speak to us is aberrant behavior.
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End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
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Old Goat
This won't happen, especially in the United States. Organizations and individuals have the right of association. That right includes the right to not associate.
There are x-witnesses with whom I would not assocaite. I treasure my right to choose my associates. Don't you?
What many here don't like is suffering a consequence for behavior. As i read these posts, the issue for many isn't that they believe contrary doctrine or reject on moral grounds Watchtower practice. The Watchtower religion is a morally high expectation sect. You chose a contrary course and hate the consequences. But no one is obilgated to associate with you. Some of us need to stop whining.
For those of you who are Americans, do you believe in our system of rights and obligations? It seems not. I'm not sure what you do believe. You want to force your association on those who don't accept your behvaior or current belief. Why would you do that? Why would you turn to courts or legislation to force someone to talk to you?
Some who post here misrepresent their 'enlightenment.' They found watchtower teaching and practice defective after they abandoned the group's behavior standards. Some of those who post here make youtube videos that are less than factual. You hurt yourself. No informed witness will take you seriously. I don't take you seriously, and I have serious issues with the Watchtower.
Frankly, some of us need to mature. And some of us who live in the United States need to appreciate our country's system of rights, one of which is the right to choose associates. You weren't "chosen" and you whine. Stop it.